Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There are two quarters that tend to be the hotter quarters. Earlier this year we didn't see a lot of that. There was lots of uncertainty because of the change in administration. There was a change of priorities and now we're starting to see that second hot quarter of the year which tends to be Q4 when these companies have leftover budget from the beginning of the year and they're thinking about how they want to use that budget before they go into a new cycle.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Gentlemen, we are back for another episode. Greg, you're not in your typical studio, which is throwing me off. You're on the road somewhere. It's like a semi blurry Airbnb hotel room looking thing. I think like Will, this is equivalent to Chamath on All in being at one of his villas. Right? I think it's the same thing.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: I was joking earlier that yeah, the all in guys, they call from the villas in Lake Como, Italy all the time. So you know, if they, they can do that, why can't Greg call from the Amex lounge at and Denver Airport?
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going to marry it in Denver. Rachel maybe is my Lake Como villa, but visiting a friend for a wedding and just working remote while I'm here for yeah, the next day or so.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: So Greg, what is the Marriott in Denver like right now? Just give us the top three takes of manufacturing from the Marriott in Denver. Any good insights like being inside of a Marriott in Denver, Colorado right now?
[00:01:26] Speaker C: I don't know if I have any magical insights. I'm excited, I'm excited to talk about the podcast. There's a lot of exciting things going on, both from a product standpoint at Diagon and then the broader. I mean the stock market's ripping. The AI pyramid scheme I posted on LinkedIn this week is kind of in full flight. There does seem to be a pickup in manufacturing equipment procurement we'll talk about. But yeah, I'm just fired up for a lot of reasons. There's a lot of things to be optimistic about. There's a lot of problems to solve and things to work on. But hey, that's, that's why we get up in the morning.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: I love it. We'll pull that up right now actually while you're talking the AI pyramid scheme, you'll just see kind of the loop de loops that we're seeing of investment. I feel like Greg's been, been on that kick along with Will this last week. And guys, I got to acknowledge it just before we get going here is I do have a cast. I don't want to go into the exact details, but it, it's a fractured, fractured thumb, which is not ideal.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah, we're not going to force you to talk about it, but since we're on the topic, do you want to tell anybody how this injury happened? Were you wrestling? Was it like a really cool sports injury or motocross?
[00:02:31] Speaker B: It was none of those things, unfortunately. All I'll tell you is it involved an aggressive game of Duck, Duck Goose for a Sunday school class that I'm teaching. That's all I'm leaving it at. All. Right, well, let's just dive right in. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Welcome to the Movers and Makers podcast. My name is Blake Menezes. I run marketing here at Diagon. With us as Will Drury and Greg Smyth, two of the co founders of Diagon. Gentlemen, welcome. We've got a pretty good episode today and I'm excited to dive right into things. We have been seeing a lot of macro shifts and trends, everything from every large tech company in the world being courted at a dinner at the White House, announcing as they went around the table, different levels of investment between Meta OpenAI, Nvidia and a few others, and some of the all in podcast guys. And then we're also seeing everything from, like Hitachi over on the east coast announcing hundreds of millions of dollars in opening a digital factory. It feels like we're seeing a little bit of a shift here. Greg, do you want to provide any, any takes here in this realm? Let us know what you think.
[00:03:32] Speaker C: I think there's two main factors driving it. And I was seeing this, you know, I was working a lot with customers. I'll talk more about this later, but I'm. I am focused more internally on building our product, but I worked a lot with customers directly buying equipment for the past two years. And I would say for the first, for the last year, there was just a lot of hesitation. Like, I think people wanted to build factories, but there was just a lot of uncertainty. And I think the two main things were interest rates and tariffs. And I think basically interest rates got cut for the first time last week. That signals just were on the start of a new cycle where hopefully rates are on a trajectory of kind of coming down, which, you know, for capital equipment and factory building is very important calculus and on these projects. So I think that provides some certainty that that interest rates and capital flows will start to open up. And then I think there's some level of certainty that the tariff situation is at least like, stabilizing and likely de escalating largely. And so I think you're starting to see, you know, when I was working on this very actively, you know, we were just hearing people say like we want to build a factory but we need to wait till these things kind of level out. And even some very specific customers, like we're trying to decide between building a factory in Malaysia versus building one in the US now they want to, they're ready to buy millions or tens of millions of dollars worth of equipment, likely building a factory in the US and so it's just exciting to see that, that happen now. There's lots of things to actually see how that unfolds, but the signals that are, that's starting to be unblocked. But will, what are you, what are you seeing on the ground? You're doing this every day for the last couple of months at least.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: So Greg and I for, for those who aren't really close to the matter, we've kind of swapped jobs within the company where a few months ago I was kind of leading product defacto and Greg was leading commercial, our commercial engagement. And now we've kind of switched those roles where I am leading most of the customer outreach, supplier engagement on the commercial front and Greg is leading our product. And I think we're both much happier in the roles that we're in and learning a lot. And the thing that I've been observing, I won't say that it's because I've gotten into this role because I think there's been a lot of a huge uptick in just the number of requests that we're seeing. So in any given week, seven to 10 requests for different types of machines from aerospace customers to semiconductor companies. You can really kind of see the industries that are heating up. The types of requests that they have are for more production style equipment which really does hint at the loosening of their capex budgets to spend money on things and make investments for future production lines. And so I think that, you know, we are, we're certainly benefiting from that tailwind right now. And it's really interesting to see the kind of the kinds of insights that we can get just from understanding what types of things companies are purchasing at this point in time where they weren't, you know, weren't in market just a few short months ago.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: What do you think about this timing in particular Will is leading to this. Is it all of those things that Greg just mentioned and is it impacting any particular industries that you're starting to see? And I think it's worth mentioning just because you just brought it up. You know, as Will and Greg have done this musical chair switch, it's great because it almost is Greg out in the field talking to customers daily.
And now Greg's coming back in while Will grabs the command and runs back out to talk on the field. And it's created this flywheel of insight about equipment, about factories growing, about the natural growth of things. And so yeah, Will, talk me through where you're seeing these industries and kind of this shift. Is this normal for September or is this special to 2025 right now?
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah, good question. I would say, you know, when you think about just cyclicality throughout the year in capex procurement, specifically on manufacturing equipment, there are two quarters that tend to be the hotter quarters. Those will be Q1. So throughout in the course of the year, most companies are developing their budgets for the following year starting in Q3, going into Q4, deciding that they want to get into making, I don't know, a certain type of satellite.
And because of that they're going to need to make capital investments next year so that they can manufacture those things. They get approved by their board, they've got a brand new budget that they're ready to spend that next year, usually starting in Q1. So I think that's what drives the Q1 rush. Earlier this year we didn't see a lot of that. There was lots of uncertainty because of the change in administration.
There was a change of priorities.
Companies and industries that were hot, like renewable energy is coming into the year, were not as hot in the course of Q1, but other industries like aerospace and defense became much more hot following that. So I think throughout the course of the year we've seen a maturing of the economy where people are kind of starting to get their footing, seeing which industries are the ones that they where they want to place their big bets. And now we're starting to see that second hot quarter of the of the year, which tends to be Q4 when these companies have leftover budget from the beginning of the year and they're thinking about how they want to use that budget before they go into a new cycle. And so I think just this quarter and going into the next one, there are lots of needs that are surfacing. It's a great thing overall, but it does tend to be in a more difficult time of the year when there are so many holidays and other things that can get in the way. But generally I think it's a good thing for the economy and I think it's not just us seeing this. I think it's really visible when you look at the greater macro trends in the stock market. And we're also seeing the federal interest rates staying the same or even being cut. And that also gives more confidence that these companies can go off and make those investments and not be losing out on opportunity costs.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: It feels like what you're describing is at the base of a couple of tide pools and all of the tides are coming in and there's a lot of swirling that's happening of different macro shifts. This is for you, Will. And then I'm going to ask you too, Greg, in just a second. What is the one tip you would give to people that are buying equipment in the next few months that are in that process that maybe is just going to help them avoid any kind of the common pitfalls so that they're not getting caught too much in those swirling tides and they're, they're, they're keeping at least their heads above water.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: So, so some things that I'll say are approach the market with some flexibility. So what I've noticed actually coming, coming into this market is that in the industry of manufacturing equipment, or even in this market, there are times when companies are investing in brand new equipment where they're making these large scale investments. That tends to be the only way that they'll get exactly what they need at the scale and size that they need. But what we're seeing is a little different. We're seeing a lot of companies make these requests, but they're in the market for used equipment. And I think that's very wise. So the interesting thing about the used equipment market is that after several quarters, even a year plus of a bear market in this industry, there are lots of great deals out there to be had.
The problem is finding them and knowing who exactly is selling the machines that you would need that meet your specifications. And so I think that's where we can help with sourcing used equipment. And I think one of the tips I have for that approaching the market in that way is to just be flexible or open minded at least about the machine specs that you're going after.
Everyone wants exactly the machine that they want until they find a good deal and then they're like, oh, you know what, like that tolerance that I put there. It's not that critical. I think we can loosen it up a bit so that we can accommodate this machine. And so I'd say you can do a much better job and a much more thorough job at searching the market if you have an open mind and are willing to make some compromises.
[00:11:56] Speaker C: Most companies do this but to varying levels of, of completeness I think is really looking at these equipment purchases. They're not I, I sometimes say these are not Amazon one click buys. They're investment decisions with real return on invested capital.
And you should really be diligent about that. Like look at the actual capital cost, what the like really the total cost of ownership will be for the machine and like what will be the productive value of it and try and be conservative in that that assuming the macro conditions could get better but they could get worse or they could stay the same for an extended period of time. And you want to have a robust model that like even if things get worse that this machine will still do what you, you think it will do. And a huge factor in that and those calculations are the capital cost like cause that's depreciated over some period of time and the capital cost is a big part and interest rates depending on on your lending rate has a huge impact. But like what's in your control a lot of the times is, is the capital cost. And that's where new versus used or relaxing tolerances can make a huge difference. Like I've done these equipment sourcings where you've gone from spending 5,6 million to like under a million. Like it's, it can be huge. Like if you're willing to compromise now you need. The machine still needs. You need to make sure the machine does what you want it to do for the time period you need it. And you don't want to compromise on quality and reliability. But you also need to be mindful that the manufacturing engineers are not shooting for perfection or buying what sometimes called like the Cadillac. And there's often a middle ground that's capitally efficient that can sometimes you can get the machine sooner that can be very attractive and though you'll have to take some level of risk that it may not be the exact perfect machine that you want. So that's what I'd say it's like to consider that and like total cost of ownership is a very important part of that calculation.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: I feel like that take on don't let perfect being the enemy of good as it relates to equipment searches as we enter into fall is relevant for a lot of startup operators. Actually I think it's relevant for not letting perfect be the enemy of good as it relates to development cycles, to campaigns on the go to market side and even some of the messaging and other build outs that they're doing. And I think that's a natural transition into what we're seeing in terms of boots on the ground, specifically some of the projects that are starting to come in. And for those that are listening, when we talk about a project, it's an equipment request. It's someone reaching out to us and saying, hey, we'd like to use your platform as the catalyst and also the driving force to help us find that equipment. And so I think Will, I'd love for you to, first of all, just if people are listening, give us the quick elevator. Less than 60 seconds of what is Diagon and Albus. So will take it away. Give us that high level. Diagon and Albus take.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: High level take. It's very simple. Diagon exists to help customers buy manufacturing equipment. If you are a manufacturer of any kind of product, it could be an aerospace product, an energy product, typically anything that's in an industrial product, you're going to require some manufacturing automation or test equipment. The way that we work is customers provide us with their requirements. They tell us, hey, I'm looking for a wire bonder or a wheel balancer. They provide us with specifications, you know, telling us about the dimensions, maybe some materials types that are important to them and any other considerations they have whether they want to buy this product new or if they're open to used options. And then they let Diagon take care of the rest. We've built ALBIS to be an AI agent that supports these types of requests. So historically we, our team, myself, Greg, even Blake, whenever things get really busy, would intake those requirements, identify suppliers, and then recommend machines that work for that customer's requirements. And now that we are building this AI platform, we're able to hand over a lot of that querying to albus, our new AI platform. The exciting thing about that is that it's not only powered by the methodology and the process that we have developed over the years, but it's also powered by the data that we've been building, the data set that we've been building up. And that data set contains all types of industrial equipment suppliers, different equipment categories and machine models and all the things that will make a large a search through a large language model really shine in comparison to anything that you would get off the shelf through like a chat, GPT or Claude. So it's very exciting. I've never been more excited about what we're building. I think that there's an incredible value proposition for our buyers because buyers are looking to get equipment sooner so that they can spend their Time making products rather than buying machines. But it's also a very exciting tool for machine sellers because you can imagine as a machine seller, if you've got now Diagon coming with 60, 70 requests per month, that can be a very exciting lead generation tool for you where you can identify very high intent, warm customers that are in the market for the machines that you sell.
So that is my elevator pitch. It's probably more than 60 seconds, but hopefully it gives you a really good idea of what we're building.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: 60 seconds was aspirational. Will and Greg and I know that every single time.
We know that earlier we mentioned Will that you and Greg switched hats, right? And now Will you just answered the question like a classic CEO out on the road talking to the customers and actually articulating what it's looking like for both people that are selling equipment and what that means, but also what they should know about the people that are looking for equipment and some of those things and how we're doing helping serve both of those in this software platform. Greg, you're running product now, so give us the quick high level of what you're excited about from maybe a different lens as you're thinking about some of the first principles building that you're doing here, what that looks like for us and some of these technology platforms we're weaving into Aldus and Diacon.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: I'm really excited and I think I can describe it in this Venn diagram.
There's really three things coming together and the really cool thing is it's really bringing together three ideas from the last two years of building Diagon. The first circle in the Venn diagram that you'll see is the visual elements of the marketplace that we build. People love seeing machinery. There's really no place you can go look for this machinery today. Maybe you can find CNC machines, but for a lot of big manufacturing equipment you basically can't find it. So visual elements of that we want to bring, like bring to these buyers. The second circle is data that Will talked about, you know, data. This industry is largely offline, you know, besides commoditized equipment like the websites for most of these equipment companies are terrible. They don't rank on Google. They're very high level sales information but have no, no e commerce experience. Anything close to like a modern digital e commerce experience.
So bringing the data together is also very valuable. Just having it in one place in one platform.
And then the third obvious one is AI. And I think AI is this big buzzword. But I think what we're Starting to see is you can really build what they call expert systems where the reason people come to Will and I are for two reasons. It's expertise from buying equipment for over 10 years or more and it's a Rolodex. It's like that you know who to call or if you don't know who to call, you know how to find who to call. And I think really we're going to bring those, those two or two of those things are the key pillars and the third one maybe as simple as like people want to see pictures or visual elements of it. And I'm just really excited to see those things. We had the early, you know, the, the product is still early but we're starting to see those elements come together and we'll kind of tease what, what the future of ALBUS will look like. And that future is Q4 and so it's not that far in the future and it's going to be really incredible to see those three things come together.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Will, I'm going to go back to you. So tell us about a couple of the current projects. And again those projects are people coming to us saying we're looking for equipment and then we are utilizing what Greg just described, ALBUS to start to bring in those results of those equipment searches and help make sense of the expertise and the Rolodex that lives within Greg and Will. So yeah, Will, walk us through one or two of those projects.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: I'll first start by saying we hold our customers information in very high confidence. So you know, as they provide us with their equipment requests, we don't share any information unless they've given us permission to or we have an NDA in place with the sellers. That said, I'd be really happy to talk in generalities and high level just talk about some of the machine types that we're seeing are in demand. I would say the first category would be coding machines. So coding machines can be used for all different types of things. There are different types of coders depending on the application.
Right now we're seeing two big types of coding machines that are very, in very high demand. One is for aerospace products.
So in the aerospace industry there as you can imagine are lots of metal components. These are usually parts that are like 3D parts. They're machine cut or they might be sheet metal that are cut into certain dimensions. Those will then go into a satellite or a rocket or missile, whatever the end use application might be.
Depending on that end use application, that part might experience very high temperatures. They might experience corrosive environments, like being in the ocean or something like that. And because of that, those machines need to be coated with special types of materials. And that coating process typically requires physical vapor deposition or a chemical vapor deposition that deposits like a thin layer of coating onto that, that, that part. So that's like one category that I've been really excited about because there are lots of different types of machines and depending on the machine type that you need, there are suppliers that specialize in those. Another category that I've seen is really popular at the moment are things like wire bonders. So wire bonders in the use of, of like PCBA assembly, they're used in the manufacturing of electronics products like consumer electronics, electric vehicles, and also in end products like data centers. So I think it's really interesting to see how the macro level trends in an industry like aerospace and defense can drive requirements for more coding machines. And that's the way that that shows up in our platform or more data centers. Investments in data centers end up resulting in things like investments in wire bonders and specialized machinery for that industry.
I think it's a really fascinating time to be in the manufacturing machinery market. And specifically if you build machines for any kind of industry, this could be a great opportunity to expand into new markets that the ones that are really hot right now, or if you're already in those markets, to think more about what those end customers might need from you.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: What are the one or two top pain points that they're trying to solve here? Like why are they coming to you for this versus just trying to do it themselves? Because you just went really deep on a specific type of search. But why even go after this?
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. It tends to come down to two things.
It's three things actually. The first is time. And so the lead times for this type of equipment can be very long. Anywhere from 18 months up to one of our customers was searching for a piece of equipment and they were quoted a three year lead time. And at that point I'm like, if you're the seller, do you even want customers? Because who's going to wait three years? Like the world's going to be an entirely different place by the time the customer gets your thing. So time is one where customers are looking to reduce their lead times either by finding alternate suppliers that can deliver sooner or used machines that might be on the market available today. The second thing is cost. Companies reach out to us when they've got a budget that they're trying to meet. And for whatever reason, all of the options that they have presented to them are very high. And so they are looking for alternative quotes like call it a second opinion or a third opinion on the machine to see if there are options out there that might be cheaper. And again, that's another area where used equipment is really hot. The third thing is, let's call it technical expertise and support. Where in many cases the end customers for these machines, they may not be the technical experts at the end of the day, and they are looking for support with identifying machine capabilities that we're not even sure exist in the market.
And so these are things that we can help them answer by getting data points back from suppliers on whether they can achieve doing two processes in the same chamber or something like that. So those tend to be the three reasons. And if I were to bundle all of those together and say, what is the value that Diagon provides? It's really confidence. At the end of the day, our customers want to feel confident that the decision they're making with that investment in their capital equipment is the best possible decision they could make. They're spending their money wisely, they're getting the right thing and they're getting it in time for production.
[00:25:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I think one way I think about the tools we're trying to build is, you know, Will and I led the team of like 30 buyers that did this at Tesla. But most people are not Tesla or Ford or these giant companies where they have huge expert teams that buy equipment all day long, although there's still tooling that we can help them with, but the majority of people just don't have that. They're, they're like the CEO doing procurement, They're a manufacturing engineer doing procurement. They're the COO doing procurement, or even sometimes like head of sales, refer business development doing it. And both Will and I know, like, these transactions we, I talked about, these transactions are complicated. And like it's its own expertise on like the procurement aspect of it, let alone the machine, obviously is very complicated, but the process of buying it, and we'll say for lack of a better term, like not getting screws and price is one factor, but payment terms, legal liabilities, delivery, installation, there's like a million variables that you can get wrong and that can turn your project economics upside down or even can bankrupt your company if you do it wrong. Like, if the. Like, there's lots of risk with these decisions and that's what we're trying to do. Like, we've used these analogies before where like we use gusto for payroll and Will's like all of a sudden like I'm a payroll expert. Like I will set up payroll in Texas in like 15min where like before you'd have to hire a consultant, they probably had to take five to 10 hours to do it. Will would have to read a bunch of like laws to make sure he doesn't get sued or, or break some law I didn't know about. But now like in a few clicks you can like, you can kind of automatically do it for the most part. Or like Shopify really has like democratized entrepreneurship for a lot of people who just want to have a small business online but they, they don't, they're not experts in e commerce, they can't build on Amazon and, or their own Amazon marketplace. But you know, they, they've done that and I think there's just a big space for that where we don't want everyone to hire a 30 person capex team like Tesla did. It feels like there should be a software solution that, that enables a lot of these people and they're doing it today. But they're probably, I hate to say they're getting screwed but that's why they're coming to us because they, they either have in the past or they're worried about making a meaningful decision that can either impair the company or, or really disadvantage a project. And so I think those are the customers I'm most excited about helping. They're really capable, they, they really want to get the right thing but they often just don't have the time or expertise and they don't have the time to go like, you know, become a payroll expert in Texas if you know what I mean.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: I love it. I know we're coming up on time and I normally we have our hot take but guys, I'm going to take a slight pivot. What are the three things? Well, between all of us, the one thing for each of us that we're most excited about right now, whether at Diagon or more broadly in the market right now and what we're working on. I'll start just to kick things off for me, definitely most excited about the just pickup in demand overall of what we're seeing in the market right now for manufacturing machinery and what that looks like for the overall business and as a startup go to market operator the just sheer amount of tools available to you, whether it's the inbound LLM calls that we're seeing of people starting to search for equipment or if it's the ways that we're able to use Clay to do programmatic enrichment or spinning up quick custom GPTs using third party tools to extend their rag to so many exciting things. And so for me, I think it's definitely that, that proliferation of tools coupled with the demand that we're just seeing overall in the market. So. All right, that's me.
[00:29:26] Speaker C: All right. Mine is similar that in the way it may be more specific to our product. You know, I think these three pillars I'm starting to see come together, which, you know, when you pivot in a company, it feels like sometimes you're, you're going in different directions or sometimes it even feels like wasted effort. And if it actually feels like it's really coalescing, it's like these three pillars, Data, AI expert, network, and of the visual elements of a marketplace. I can really start it coming, see it coming together both from an engineering standpoint and from like a user experience standpoint. And, and that just matched with, I do feel a lot of pressure to deliver on a product. It's like we've got to get something that works that's great for customers. But I've never been this optimistic that we could deliver a very compelling product that can help, like that customer profile I just talked about. And I'm just, I just want to get it out there. But you had to be patient, you had to build these things right, because again, these are very important transactions. But I'm really excited that this, we're finally on a path to build a solution that can do that, which I'm just very excited about.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: I am most excited about data, the data that we are collecting and gaining access to.
When it comes to suppliers, machines, buyer intent, specifications, all of those things, it used to be that we would learn those things, get access to them, use them to make the decision, and then that information just completely goes back into the ether.
But the interesting thing about what we're building today is that we get to capture and hold on to those learnings so that we can do these searches faster the next time and more comprehensively. And when I think about what sets an AI platform apart in this age where everyone is building an AI tool, it's really the information, the data that empowers it. Greg described it as the lifeblood of our product. And that's something that I'm really excited about because we are really, I think, at the forefront of building out that data set. And I think that we're going to be able to do some really cool things with it that we haven't even imagined yet today.
So to be Continued. More to come on that front.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: I love it. One thing for listeners that's important to call out is we've been ending our days, ending our meetings, that we have our daily meetings as a company with a moment of Zen, a little bit of words of inspiration. And Greg, this morning you shared a really good tidbit and I'm going to put you on the spot to share it again. And I think that's a great way to close out our Movers and Makers podcast today. So, Greg, do you want to close us out with a little moment of Zen for listeners?
[00:32:00] Speaker C: It's always risky to say this out loud, but it's the most excited I've been about work in more than 10 years. And I did say a part of that is the team I work with. Every day matters a lot. I've learned that over the last 15 or so years, but then it's, it's what I just talked about, but it's just like I'm really, I'm too excited in some ways. I need to calm down at different points to be like, we just had to put one foot in front of the other. And this vision is going to take a little bit of time to get out there. But, and I have, like I use this term, intuition is a hard thing to measure, but I have this intuition that we're just on to something. And again, I don't want to over promise us on things, but you can just see those elements coming together and the early signs of what this thing can do both for us as a company and, and for the customers. And we were our past customers, so I know what that those customers need because I was one of them. And so, yeah, I'm just excited and grateful.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: I love it so much. That's a great way to close out our podcast today. For those of you that are listening for the first time, thank you so much. Be sure to, like, follow and subscribe across whatever your preferred podcast platform is. Gentlemen, thank you so much for today's podcast and we'll see you next time.
